The final in our series of four chats about Reality. The first three are here:
This week I introduced the class to the philosopher René Descartes.
I started by explaining one of his major contributions to mathematics (Cartesian geometry) using the anecdote described on page 39 of Luetta and Wilbert Reimer's Mathematicians Are People, Too - vol. 2.
Complete details on this series and a list of all the mathematicians included may be found here.
We then moved on to his six meditations. I read them Mister Descartes and His Evil Genius, a picture book by Jean Paul Mongin which gives a quick overview of the series of logical deductions that Descartes goes through before reaching the conclusion that he himself is real, as is the world around him!
note: it is useful to have a piece of modeling beeswax on hand
I then wrote a quick overview of the book -- which is itself a quick overview of his writing -- up on the board so that we could discuss it. Our focus was on whether we found each stage of his thought experiment persuasive. Descartes' goal was to build up from assuming that nothing was real, and create a chain of wholly logical arguments.
* Because one of the links in his chain is God, we had to figure out how to talk about that in the classroom in a way that was respectful of all beliefs. *
If the children felt like there was a break in the chain for them, where was it and why?
His reasoning goes basically like this:
I know for sure that I have thoughts so I exist; my mind is real
my thoughts are built on things that are real; I recognize wax as wax both when it is cool and hard and also when it is warm and gooey because I have a central concept of wax which both of these thoughts connect back to
it's not my senses that I am using to tell that it is wax because it appears so different in every sense, therefore, it must be the idea of wax that I'm using
the ideas that stand as the basis of my thinking are real, and whatever created those ideas is likewise real;
those ideas come from a deep, eternal, infinite and perfect source and that source is called by the name "God"
God is all things and contains all things and that includes being real
God is also love and truth and would not be tricking me as an Evil Genius
my dreams are not real; I can tell my dreams from being awake because I can use my memory to connect the past and the present; ie. when I awake from a dream I see my bedroom and my sheets and my family and the trees outside and they are the same as what was there when I fell asleep
By the way, I made a blog post that lists all the titles in this series by Plato & Co.
Now, on to our discussion!
I would like to hear some of your thoughts.
CB - I kind of don't agree with him. I think that dreams are real, that it's your imagination. I've had dreams that I'm in my bedroom and it's my same bedroom. I think that they're real because of the dreams that I've had, they are literally me in my bed watching TV and that's what I do.
EO - I agree with CB that dreams are real. Some dreams are a mix of your imagination and a memory. Or maybe a memory that you don't remember because it's from too far back but it pops up in your dream and you're like, why do I recognize that but I don't really recognize that?
AAR - My mom told me, and I believe her, that dreams are memories. Dreams are built off of the memories so something you don't remember pops up in your dream. And sometimes you dream that same dream but just slightly different. I had a dream that I had again but it's just different people.
Z - I had a dream one time that we were having a party and I just got this feeling that I just knew what was real and what wasn't. I just knew. That only happened that one night but in that moment I knew what was what. And dreams are built on actual things, I agree with you. I had a nightmare a couple days ago that I was in the laundry room, the actual laundry room, and that was scary but it was the actual place.
CB - I had a dream last week that I was two and I asked my mom about it that morning and she said that it actually happened.
EO - I strongly disagree with him about never having the same dream again. I know I'm a lucid dreamer so I can put it on replay or put it in my memory bank and say, I'm going to dream this again tomorrow night. I've also had the same nightmare again.
Let's look at his chain of reasoning from the very beginning.
Do you agree that this is a true statement, that your mind does exist?
Z - No, your mind gives you images that sometimes are real and sometimes are not. Like if you dream that there's a unicorn in your bathroom. That isn't real. So how do you know that everything else also isn't real, like the sofa or the handwork baskets. We are fiction, and there is somebody else who is real and they tell our stories around campfires. And we are the fiction. And then we think that they are the fiction. Gnomes would tell our stories as giant stories but we would tell their stories as fae folk.
AAR - I do agree about that one but I don't agree on the God thing. We have no proof I feel. How is he real? How is he controlling? He could be your mind tricking you. How do we know he's real? We never have seen him before. We are the cause of our ideas. Our brain is the cause of our ideas.
How far along the chain do you go? Does he persuade you all the way to the end?
CB - If there's no Jesus and no God, then what's church?
Descartes is saying that "God" is the word that we use to refer to mysterious and infinite and eternal. You don't have to believe in God or not believe in God to be part of the thought experiment. He's playing a game. Are we here? How do you know we are here?
CB -
We are living and breathing.
EO - I don't want to offend anybody who does believe in God.
I think when people get offended, it's when someone is saying "you are wrong; don't believe that." But if you say, "in my mind, this is how I think about it," then I don't think that would offend anyone.
EO - Okay. On the chain, I think that I believe in the "memory past to present" and "in my mind, I exist" but not "cause of ideas, God." How I think about it is that somebody hundreds of years ago thought of God and then sprouted a religion. That's where the chain would break with me.
AAR - He didn't persuade me about the God thing, it's your mind. And then "perfect" [in the chain] would be erased for me because nobody's perfect; "infinity," I'm not 100% sure about that; "love and truth"...
Love and truth, are they real?
AAR - YES. And shapes and textures are real but not colors. That color of the floor is just the color your eyes are letting in. So actually everything is every color. Scientifically. I believe that because there's a video that my mom watched. Why are the prime colors different on computers and paints?
Are you real? [to the people who haven't spoken yet]
EF - I consider yes, because it goes back to our first discussion. How do you know if it's real? I can see EO right now. I can feel her. If she talks I can hear her. So that confirms to me that she's real.
LL - I don't know. I hear things a lot. That aren't actually there. My mind is real but not always the things that it tells me.
Explain the difference between a thought that isn't real and your mind not being real.
LL - Even a false thought is proof that you have a mind. Because you can think so it must be there.
EF bringing things back to our very first discussion, "The Velveteen Rabbit," reminded me that I had wanted to tell the children that I think the Velveteen Rabbit was real the whole time... because he is the only one who asks the Skin Horse about being real. Only someone who is real would have quesions about being real. That's my response to "The Velveteen Rabbit" and to Descartes! I remember when I was a little girl and my rabbit died. I asked my father if rabbits have a soul. He told me that only creatures that have a soul wonder if they have a soul. Asking the question is itself the proof.
The children have requested that we do Love as our next Philosophy topic!
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